Discussion

• @steipete Peter Steinberger on x

  “We thought Apple realized that developers made the platform, but this incident has explicitly made clear that Apple sees developers as a source of revenue only,” said Aaron Vegh, a longtime software developer. “And that's a difficult pill to swallow.” https://www.bloomberg.com/.…

• @markgurman Mark Gurman on x

  Apple will walk into WWDC facing some of its biggest pushback ever from the developer community since the App Store launched in 2008. My WWDC 2020 Preview on that and what to expect: https://www.bloomberg.com/...

• @jsoltero Javier Soltero on x

  Somewhere, PowerPC is crying into a glass of wine thinking “I told you they'd abandon you too but you never listened!”. https://www.nytimes.com/...

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  This ‘the App Store is a business, they can do what they want’ thing is nonsense. The App Store is a utility. It defines the future of software. If you're not on it as a developer, you don't exist. If you don't have access to apps, as a user, you're excluded from the modern world

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  A hill I would die on: curated app stores have been hugely, unambiguously good for users and software developers, and especially for user security and privacy. 1/

• @waltmossberg Walt Mossberg on x

  @stevesi puts the App Store debate into the historical context surrounding Windows and shows why curated app stores make sense for users, even if developers don't like them. It's a long thread, but well documented and worth reading. https://twitter.com/...

• @reneritchie Rene Ritchie on x

  “Apple captures 30% of billings through its App Store. My estimate for these billings were $67.9 billion in 2019 which means App Store billings were 13% of the 2019 ecosystem. Apple's 30% cut of Billings amounts to 3.8% for the whole ecosystem. It's hardly an oppressive number.” …

• @reneritchie Rene Ritchie on x

  (It's fascinating to see how different the takes are between several of the industry analysts who focus on Apple. And all how different some of those takes are from media that cover Apple. My guess is focusing on 30% is less important than focusing on consistency/transparency.) h…

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  We've been arguing about Apple's payment rules since the app store began. From day 1, there has been stuff that should clearly use IAP, stuff that obviously can't, and a huge grey area in the middle where Apple's rules are fuzzy, arbitrary & often look like pure rent-seeking 1/

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  The funny thing about this App Store thing is that absolutely nobody has said anything that people didn't say a decade ago. The only thing that's changed is that Apple is now big enough to be firmly in the anti-trust crosshairs

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  There is a quite widespread idea that you can retain the safety, privacy and trust benefits of the sandboxed app model while solving the question of Apple's policies if you let people install multiple app stores. I think this is it completely wrong 1/

• @stevesi Steven Sinofsky on x

  Debate/discussion/rants about app stores (or perhaps The App Store) have rapidly polarized to the point where it seems difficult to have a rational discussion. Even trying to discuss is viewed as a defense. A discussion without defending. The situations are similar, really. 1/

• @rogueamoeba Rogue Amoeba on x

  This piece from @jasonfried covers a whole lot of the problems with Apple's App Stores: https://hey.com/... These things aren't just bad for developers. They're bad for users and even Apple.

• @donmacaskill Don MacAskill on x

  This. 1000%. As another business with exceptional customer care, this right here is everything you need to know about @Apple and IAP. https://twitter.com/...

• @thurrott Paul Thurrott on x

  “Phil Schiller's suggestion that we should raise prices on iOS customers to make up for Apple's added margin is antitrust gold.” Ohh. Beautiful. https://hey.com/...

• @benbajarin Ben Bajarin on x

  This poll is for iOS developers. If Apple allowed you alternate payment methods and took no fee, but your app would never be featured or promoted in the App Store would you take that trade-off?

• @tritchey Tim Ritchey on x

  What I find frustrating about the App Store situation is not the rules, or 30% cut, but that from the start Apple has contorted software business models into their media-distribution infrastructure. We are clearly limited to decades-old ideas about how songs and movies are sold.

• @jasonfried Jason Fried on x

  John @gruber's take on @karaswisher's column is spot on. This week we've hear from so many who are afraid to speak. There's a tsunami coming, but you can't tell until it hits the shore. The question is, when's it going to break? https://daringfireball.net/...

• @lorenb Loren Brichter on x

  “[you] have not contributed any revenue to the App Store over the last eight years”, oh suck it. How about you compete with letting folks have a direct relationship with their customers (on hardware they *bought*) and offer a compelling reason to go through your dollar store.

• @carnage4life Dare Obasanjo on x

  I'm going to go out on a limb and say Apple taking a 30% cut is a bigger deal than not being able to handle customer billing requests directly for 99.9% of app developers. I also think it isn't the case for HEY but great positioning that it isn't about 💰 https://hey.com/...

• @capiche @capiche on x

  The App Store increasingly seems an archaic burden, not a reasonable fee to simplify software distribution. Mobile software needed the App Store a decade ago. Today's SaaS doesn't. https://capiche.com/...

• @capiche @capiche on x

  Think the App Store's 30% cut is expensive? Try the Kindle store, where Amazon may charge as much as 65% of your book sale price. And even that might look cheap compared to physical retail. https://capiche.com/...

• @maguay Matthew Guay on x

  The interesting thing about @dhh and @basecamp Hey versus @Apple over App Store pricing is that ... they don't really need the App Store. They need a mobile app. But SaaS doesn't need the payments, licensing, and more that made the App Store worth 30%. https://capiche.com/...

• @rmantri Rajeev Mantri on x

  Great piece...distribution has costs. https://twitter.com/...

• @kocienda Ken Kocienda on x

  “Let's make the App Store insanely great.” What if that were Apple's philosophy? It doesn't seem like it is.

• @dhh @dhh on x

  So, @pschiller, please turn this ship around. Give us, and all the other developers who just want to make great apps for their existing services, a fair playing field. WWDC is next week. I guarantee you that nobody wants to hear bragging about DEVELOPERS w/o addressing this ✌️❤️

• @drbarnard David Barnard on x

  Apple should absolutely keep improving the App Store, but most of the things listed here are already possible, they just require a bit more work. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ https://twitter.com/...

• @bsletten @bsletten on x

  This is a good write up about the Hey nonsense. Related, my next computer will not be an Apple. Quality has gone down in both hardware and software while the Apple tax has gone up. But this isn't about the money as the article spells out. https://hey.com/...

• @bazscott @bazscott on x

  This whole argument seems to be “iPhones should be dumb pipes”. I don't buy the angle of it serving customers better for my credit card to be held at 100 companies, I'd much rather deal with paying only Apple, that's far safer! https://twitter.com/...

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  Apple locked down App Store payments in early 2011. At that point around 10% of the mobile phones in the USA were iPhones. Today, 60-70% are iPhones (and 80%+ of US teenagers have an iPhone). That changes the conversation about what terms are OK.

• @om @om on x

  @dre7413 @brianbehrend Yes, it has. Technology's core is impermanence. And with time everything has to evolve. Apple thinks nothing has changed since it launched the AppStore.

• @gartenberg Michael Gartenberg on x

  @matt_garber probably. Kindle was around from day one, they just chose not be in the App store selling content. Pretty simple back then. IAPs made sense for devs fo monetize things like users paying for new features, such as new levels.

• @neilcybart Neil Cybart on x

  It's helpful not to lose perspective of the big picture. The loudest voices against the App Store (Spotify) want to change everything. This isn't just about revenue share percentages or unclear App Store guidelines. It's about who has more control. https://www.aboveavalon.com/ ..…

• @stevesi Steven Sinofsky on x

  @_lordmax_ @Apple @om Separating out the opinion of something being bad for business from allegedly illegal actions is an important first step in the discussion. Apple has a long history of success that follows from “bad for business” choices. And also a history of over-playing t…

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  @vinski_ or you hit upon the key point: Apple's App Store is so dominant, especially to developers of paid apps and services, that other stores don't even enter the conversation

• @benbajarin Ben Bajarin on x

  @elkmovie The other that has always intriqued me was Oculus who gets around this because you pay for it in the Oculus app but the app gets installed on a different device than iPhone.

• @elkmovie Michael Love on x

  Still working on the best formulation, but I'm feeling like some version of “why do I have to pay Apple 30% while Facebook/Uber don't” is probably the strongest public argument against current App Store policies, as it disposes of most of the pro-Apple arguments in one swoop.

• @dhh @dhh on x

  But I cannot tell you how much it means to us to have had such a reception, and such support. Both from everyone using the app (or eagerly anticipating it!), and from everyone voicing their support re: Apple. Thank. You. No. Really. THANK YOU 🙏❤️🙏

• @dhh @dhh on x

  HEY already has a 4.7/5 rating on the App Store! Tons of customers who love the app that's there. And our iOS team never stopped working on improvements. Thankfully the current app is pretty rock solid, but we have feature upgrades we'd love to push out.

• @mijustin Justin Jackson on x

  This is a good point: IAP really doesn't make sense for multi-platform SaaS apps. If I'm on iPhone, and I switch to Android, what happens? https://hey.com/... https://twitter.com/...

• @ayjay Alan Jacobs on x

  Jason Fried: “Apple's rules prevent us from servicing our customers, yet Apple gives us no choice but to submit to those onerous rules or not be represented on their platform. That's flat out hostile - to us, to our customers, and to the community.” https://hey.com/...

• @sarthakgh Sar Haribhakti on x

  “Apple, please just give your developers the choice! Let us bill our own customers through our own systems, so we can help them with extensions, refunds, discounts, or whatever else our own way Compelling perspective from @jasonfried https://hey.com/...

• @paulmayne Paul Mayne on x

  At Day One, our solution for App Store refunds (over the past 3 years) has been sending the customer a payment from my personal PayPal account. A 60% loss for us every time. https://twitter.com/...

• @jasonfried Jason Fried on x

  Hey @pschiller and @tim_cook, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this next week at WWDC —> https://hey.com/...

• @danbt79 Daniel Beattie on x

  This is the clearest, most devastatingly effective piece of communication I've read in quite a while. File this under ‘New York Times Bestselling Author can write good’, I guess. Well done @jasonfried, good luck with this whole situation. I'm off to upgrade my Hey trial 💳 https:/…

• @jlantunez Jos Luis Antnez on x

  “When someone signs up for your product in the App Store, they aren't technically your customer anymore - they are essentially Apple's customer.” https://twitter.com/...

• @jasonfried Jason Fried on x

  Hey @panzer there's way more to the Apple HEY story than money. This isn't about $ or %, it's about Apple making it harder for businesses like ours - multiplatform software businesses - to do business. To help our customers. My response: https://hey.com/...

• @hardaway @hardaway on x

  I just asked for access. If I have to side load it, I will. Gladly. All of your products are good, but your ethics are better. https://twitter.com/...

• @zachwaugh Zach Waugh on x

  Apple says they put customers first, which is what we're trying to do. I know people say “just use IAP”, and if it was some consumable or one-time unlock, it be a no brainer. But a subscription with possibly hundreds of thousands of users, support will be a huge part of this. htt…

• @singlefounder Mike Taber on x

  This is one of many reasons why building on someone else's platform is something that needs to be approached with care. It will be a rough road, but I'm rooting for @jasonfried, @dhh & co to come out on top. https://twitter.com/...

• @amlewis4 Ari Lewis on x

  Generating controversy is one of the best ways to gain free press. Instead of being another tech company, HEY has positioned themselves as the company fighting Goliath (aka Apple). No amount of money can generate that type of press. https://twitter.com/...

• @angelday @angelday on x

  Really good points here. I also watched JF's tour of the product (37 mins long—coincidence?) and it reminded me of Jobs: he truly cares about the experience. https://twitter.com/...

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  @reneritchie Apple would like to think people are just upset about their tax rate, but it's not just that — it's about interfering with perfectly reasonable apps for self-serving reasons and pretending they're protecting customer interests, and channeling ‘innovation’ down pre-ap…

• @reneritchie Rene Ritchie on x

  My guess is Apple will eventually announce a “new deal” for the App Store. My fear is many of us still don't grok that we're in the age of apps-as-content now. “All” Music is only $10/m. A lot of video, $10/m. Books are fighting. News is “free”. Needs entirely different models

• @mgsiegler M.G. Siegler on x

  I escalated the analogy from the Constitution to the Old Testament. Felt warranted. It's time to re-think and re-write the App Store rules. 📲 https://500ish.com/...

• @reckless Nilay Patel on x

  @panzer @pitts_man Law students around the country buying leather-bound collections of App Store review decisions, etc

• @mims Christopher Mims on x

  Apple developers in open revolt right before what's supposed to be the biggest Apple/dev love fest of the year (WWDC) https://twitter.com/...

• @marcoarment Marco Arment on x

  A realistic solution that would give Apple and devs most of what they want, and remove most antitrust pressure, would be the older, less-strict version of the rule: Allow non-IAP payments to exist, but not be reachable in-app, and let apps say “Go to our website to sign up”. http…

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  You could see this antitrust stuff coming from a mile away, but not only did Apple sleepwalk towards it, they doubled down on making sure there would be a mountain of evidence to bury them with. It's going to hurt them so much more than doing the right thing in the first place ht…

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  The basecamp founders spent a decade marketing themselves by deliberately insulting their peers, employees & half the tech industry. That's their brand - a cool app run by trolls. Apple still needs to rewrite its payment policies. If it doesn't the EU will, and no-one wants that.