Discussion

• @benbajarin Ben Bajarin on x

  This poll is for iOS developers. If Apple allowed you alternate payment methods and took no fee, but your app would never be featured or promoted in the App Store would you take that trade-off?

• @donmacaskill Don MacAskill on x

  This. 1000%. As another business with exceptional customer care, this right here is everything you need to know about @Apple and IAP. https://twitter.com/...

• @thurrott Paul Thurrott on x

  “Phil Schiller's suggestion that we should raise prices on iOS customers to make up for Apple's added margin is antitrust gold.” Ohh. Beautiful. https://hey.com/...

• @lorenb Loren Brichter on x

  “[you] have not contributed any revenue to the App Store over the last eight years”, oh suck it. How about you compete with letting folks have a direct relationship with their customers (on hardware they *bought*) and offer a compelling reason to go through your dollar store.

• @kocienda Ken Kocienda on x

  “Let's make the App Store insanely great.” What if that were Apple's philosophy? It doesn't seem like it is.

• @capiche @capiche on x

  The App Store increasingly seems an archaic burden, not a reasonable fee to simplify software distribution. Mobile software needed the App Store a decade ago. Today's SaaS doesn't. https://capiche.com/...

• @om @om on x

  @dre7413 @brianbehrend Yes, it has. Technology's core is impermanence. And with time everything has to evolve. Apple thinks nothing has changed since it launched the AppStore.

• @paulmayne Paul Mayne on x

  At Day One, our solution for App Store refunds (over the past 3 years) has been sending the customer a payment from my personal PayPal account. A 60% loss for us every time. https://twitter.com/...

• @dhh @dhh on x

  HEY already has a 4.7/5 rating on the App Store! Tons of customers who love the app that's there. And our iOS team never stopped working on improvements. Thankfully the current app is pretty rock solid, but we have feature upgrades we'd love to push out.

• @capiche @capiche on x

  Think the App Store's 30% cut is expensive? Try the Kindle store, where Amazon may charge as much as 65% of your book sale price. And even that might look cheap compared to physical retail. https://capiche.com/...

• @dhh @dhh on x

  But I cannot tell you how much it means to us to have had such a reception, and such support. Both from everyone using the app (or eagerly anticipating it!), and from everyone voicing their support re: Apple. Thank. You. No. Really. THANK YOU 🙏❤️🙏

• @neilcybart Neil Cybart on x

  It's helpful not to lose perspective of the big picture. The loudest voices against the App Store (Spotify) want to change everything. This isn't just about revenue share percentages or unclear App Store guidelines. It's about who has more control. https://www.aboveavalon.com/ ..…

• @jasonfried Jason Fried on x

  Hey @pschiller and @tim_cook, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this next week at WWDC —> https://hey.com/...

• @drbarnard David Barnard on x

  Apple should absolutely keep improving the App Store, but most of the things listed here are already possible, they just require a bit more work. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ https://twitter.com/...

• @mijustin Justin Jackson on x

  This is a good point: IAP really doesn't make sense for multi-platform SaaS apps. If I'm on iPhone, and I switch to Android, what happens? https://hey.com/... https://twitter.com/...

• @danbt79 Daniel Beattie on x

  This is the clearest, most devastatingly effective piece of communication I've read in quite a while. File this under ‘New York Times Bestselling Author can write good’, I guess. Well done @jasonfried, good luck with this whole situation. I'm off to upgrade my Hey trial 💳 https:/…

• @gartenberg Michael Gartenberg on x

  @matt_garber probably. Kindle was around from day one, they just chose not be in the App store selling content. Pretty simple back then. IAPs made sense for devs fo monetize things like users paying for new features, such as new levels.

• @jasonfried Jason Fried on x

  Hey @panzer there's way more to the Apple HEY story than money. This isn't about $ or %, it's about Apple making it harder for businesses like ours - multiplatform software businesses - to do business. To help our customers. My response: https://hey.com/...

• @maguay Matthew Guay on x

  The interesting thing about @dhh and @basecamp Hey versus @Apple over App Store pricing is that ... they don't really need the App Store. They need a mobile app. But SaaS doesn't need the payments, licensing, and more that made the App Store worth 30%. https://capiche.com/...

• @rmantri Rajeev Mantri on x

  Great piece...distribution has costs. https://twitter.com/...

• @carnage4life Dare Obasanjo on x

  I'm going to go out on a limb and say Apple taking a 30% cut is a bigger deal than not being able to handle customer billing requests directly for 99.9% of app developers. I also think it isn't the case for HEY but great positioning that it isn't about 💰 https://hey.com/...

• @hardaway @hardaway on x

  I just asked for access. If I have to side load it, I will. Gladly. All of your products are good, but your ethics are better. https://twitter.com/...

• @zachwaugh Zach Waugh on x

  Apple says they put customers first, which is what we're trying to do. I know people say “just use IAP”, and if it was some consumable or one-time unlock, it be a no brainer. But a subscription with possibly hundreds of thousands of users, support will be a huge part of this. htt…

• @stevesi Steven Sinofsky on x

  @_lordmax_ @Apple @om Separating out the opinion of something being bad for business from allegedly illegal actions is an important first step in the discussion. Apple has a long history of success that follows from “bad for business” choices. And also a history of over-playing t…

• @jasonfried Jason Fried on x

  John @gruber's take on @karaswisher's column is spot on. This week we've hear from so many who are afraid to speak. There's a tsunami coming, but you can't tell until it hits the shore. The question is, when's it going to break? https://daringfireball.net/...

• @bsletten @bsletten on x

  This is a good write up about the Hey nonsense. Related, my next computer will not be an Apple. Quality has gone down in both hardware and software while the Apple tax has gone up. But this isn't about the money as the article spells out. https://hey.com/...

• @sarthakgh Sar Haribhakti on x

  “Apple, please just give your developers the choice! Let us bill our own customers through our own systems, so we can help them with extensions, refunds, discounts, or whatever else our own way Compelling perspective from @jasonfried https://hey.com/...

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  @vinski_ or you hit upon the key point: Apple's App Store is so dominant, especially to developers of paid apps and services, that other stores don't even enter the conversation

• @benbajarin Ben Bajarin on x

  @elkmovie The other that has always intriqued me was Oculus who gets around this because you pay for it in the Oculus app but the app gets installed on a different device than iPhone.

• @bazscott @bazscott on x

  This whole argument seems to be “iPhones should be dumb pipes”. I don't buy the angle of it serving customers better for my credit card to be held at 100 companies, I'd much rather deal with paying only Apple, that's far safer! https://twitter.com/...

• @amlewis4 Ari Lewis on x

  Generating controversy is one of the best ways to gain free press. Instead of being another tech company, HEY has positioned themselves as the company fighting Goliath (aka Apple). No amount of money can generate that type of press. https://twitter.com/...

• @elkmovie Michael Love on x

  Still working on the best formulation, but I'm feeling like some version of “why do I have to pay Apple 30% while Facebook/Uber don't” is probably the strongest public argument against current App Store policies, as it disposes of most of the pro-Apple arguments in one swoop.

• @ayjay Alan Jacobs on x

  Jason Fried: “Apple's rules prevent us from servicing our customers, yet Apple gives us no choice but to submit to those onerous rules or not be represented on their platform. That's flat out hostile - to us, to our customers, and to the community.” https://hey.com/...

• @dhh @dhh on x

  So, @pschiller, please turn this ship around. Give us, and all the other developers who just want to make great apps for their existing services, a fair playing field. WWDC is next week. I guarantee you that nobody wants to hear bragging about DEVELOPERS w/o addressing this ✌️❤️

• @angelday @angelday on x

  Really good points here. I also watched JF's tour of the product (37 mins long—coincidence?) and it reminded me of Jobs: he truly cares about the experience. https://twitter.com/...

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  @reneritchie Apple would like to think people are just upset about their tax rate, but it's not just that — it's about interfering with perfectly reasonable apps for self-serving reasons and pretending they're protecting customer interests, and channeling ‘innovation’ down pre-ap…

• @reckless Nilay Patel on x

  @panzer @pitts_man Law students around the country buying leather-bound collections of App Store review decisions, etc

• @mims Christopher Mims on x

  Apple developers in open revolt right before what's supposed to be the biggest Apple/dev love fest of the year (WWDC) https://twitter.com/...

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  You could see this antitrust stuff coming from a mile away, but not only did Apple sleepwalk towards it, they doubled down on making sure there would be a mountain of evidence to bury them with. It's going to hurt them so much more than doing the right thing in the first place ht…

• @dhh @dhh on x

  It was an absolute honor to discuss Apple's App Store abuses and antitrust violations with @RepCicilline on @verge's podcast this morning. Thank you so much to @reckless, @caseynewton, and @backlon for hosting, and the great questions. This episode is going to be 🔥🔥🔥

• @tritchey Tim Ritchey on x

  What I find frustrating about the App Store situation is not the rules, or 30% cut, but that from the start Apple has contorted software business models into their media-distribution infrastructure. We are clearly limited to decades-old ideas about how songs and movies are sold.

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  Apple locked down App Store payments in early 2011. At that point around 10% of the mobile phones in the USA were iPhones. Today, 60-70% are iPhones (and 80%+ of US teenagers have an iPhone). That changes the conversation about what terms are OK.

• @jlantunez Jos Luis Antnez on x

  “When someone signs up for your product in the App Store, they aren't technically your customer anymore - they are essentially Apple's customer.” https://twitter.com/...

• @singlefounder Mike Taber on x

  This is one of many reasons why building on someone else's platform is something that needs to be approached with care. It will be a rough road, but I'm rooting for @jasonfried, @dhh & co to come out on top. https://twitter.com/...

• @carnage4life Dare Obasanjo on x

  Services is now Apple's second largest business after the iPhone. Appealing to a company's sense of fairness as a reason to give up billions in revenue has never worked. More likely that avoiding regulation will cause change. Expect a surprise at WWDC. https://500ish.com/...

• @reneritchie Rene Ritchie on x

  My guess is Apple will eventually announce a “new deal” for the App Store. My fear is many of us still don't grok that we're in the age of apps-as-content now. “All” Music is only $10/m. A lot of video, $10/m. Books are fighting. News is “free”. Needs entirely different models

• @mgsiegler M.G. Siegler on x

  I escalated the analogy from the Constitution to the Old Testament. Felt warranted. It's time to re-think and re-write the App Store rules. 📲 https://500ish.com/...

• @marcoarment Marco Arment on x

  Whoever at Apple wrote this — a few days before WWDC! — should never be allowed to communicate with developers again. Let's be clear, Apple: in addition to the $100/year developer fees and any search ads we buy, we add value to your highly profitable hardware FAR beyond the 30%. …

• @marcedwards Marc Edwards on x

  A few days out from WWDC, and this is Apple's message to developers. It reads as “you have no value to us unless you're earning us tons of cash”. https://techcrunch.com/... https://twitter.com/...

• @markgurman Mark Gurman on x

  Apple's rejection letter to Hey attached. Company also says Basecamp hasn't generated revenue for the App Store in 8 years. https://twitter.com/... https://twitter.com/...

• @maguay Matthew Guay on x

  It's not that @apple charging 30% for the App Store is so crazy; it's what nearly every software and game store charge, after Apple led the way to this pricing. It's that modern SaaS software doesn't need what Apple's selling for a 30% cut. https://capiche.com/...

• @edbott Ed Bott on x

  I agree with this take from @mgsiegler. Apple can either adapt to the world in 2020 and change its policies or wait for antitrust regulators to force them to make changes that might not be nearly as palatable or profitable https://twitter.com/...

• @pierce David Pierce on x

  Totally agree with this. Apple told me on our call that its guidelines go back to the beginning of the App Store, when paying for things on the internet was sketchy and complicated — it was a way of protecting everyone involved. The world feels different now, but the rules don't …

• @dhh @dhh on x

  “Tollbooth is just the right metaphor. While you can use various services like https://hey.com/ on the web through browsers, when it comes to mobile, app developers are subject to whatever guidelines Apple and Google impose and the fees they charge” https://www.nytimes.com/...

• @rjonesy Ryan Jones on x

  1,000% this. - Instagram, Uber, Whatsapp should pay more than 0% - Netflix, Hey, Kindle should pay less then 30% https://twitter.com/...

• @dwiskus Dave Wiskus on x

  Conspiracy theory: Apple doesn't care about the 30% from app developers, but changing it willingly would mean pressure to change the 30% for music, movies, and TV, which would cost Apple billions. If a government forces it, those contracts are protected.

• @mgsiegler M.G. Siegler on x

  We're getting too far into the weeds with all this. It seems pretty simple at a higher level: App Store rules and policies were created for the world as it was a decade ago. The world is not as it was a decade ago. Apple should create new guidelines for the world as it is now.

• @marcoarment Marco Arment on x

  A realistic solution that would give Apple and devs most of what they want, and remove most antitrust pressure, would be the older, less-strict version of the rule: Allow non-IAP payments to exist, but not be reachable in-app, and let apps say “Go to our website to sign up”. http…

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  The basecamp founders spent a decade marketing themselves by deliberately insulting their peers, employees & half the tech industry. That's their brand - a cool app run by trolls. Apple still needs to rewrite its payment policies. If it doesn't the EU will, and no-one wants that.

• @siracusa John Siracusa on x

  Wow, this is extremely flimsy. Who is Apple protecting with this stance? The poor iOS user who might download the *free* Hey app and be shocked to learn that it doesn't function without an account? ...or maybe it's about that 30% cut of in-app purchases? Yep, a real stumper. http…

• @briannawu Brianna Wu on x

  I know Apple feels like it's sticking to its guns here, but it's fundamentally misreading the room. This comes off as greedy, not principled. #WWDC is next week, where Apple will debut slickly produced videos about how much they love developers. These actions show otherwise. http…

• @danielpunkass Daniel Jalkut on x

  The way Apple is coming off right now is way more comparable to the US government than I wish it were. Gaslighting domination is not a good look. https://twitter.com/...

• @hotdogsladies Merlin Mann on x

  See, they install that TruCoat at the factory. There's nothing we can do about that. https://twitter.com/...

• @mehedih_ Mehedi Hassan on x

  Make no mistake, if it wasn't for the apps and the high quality of apps iOS developers churn out on a regular basis, I would be using a Pixel right now. https://twitter.com/...

• @beirutspring Mustapha Hamoui on x

  To borrow @dhh's phrase, I think @apple is the one playing 4D chess here and fanning the flames. This storm may end in a good news climax on Monday when apple announces some kind of dev-friendly changes to the rules in WWDC and Jujitsu its way out of all anti-trust action. https:…

• @panzer Matthew Panzarino on x

  Apple sent a letter to press (and to @dhh and @jasonfried) about Hey's rejection. I also spoke to Apple's Phil Schiller about the issue. Schiller (and Apple) has not changed stance. https://techcrunch.com/...

• @chriswelch Chris Welch on x

  What a random mix of shit to string together. For every example, you can name a giant company with an app that Apple can't really afford to lose. And all companies that Apple wouldn't want complaining to regulators. https://twitter.com/...

• @wongmjane Jane Manchun Wong on x

  I afraid the Hey-Apple controversy will be drown out in 3 days when WWDC comes, everyone will move on to the next big tech and forget about it https://twitter.com/...

• @kylealden Kyle Pflug on x

  As a Windows Phone veteran, I sympathize with Apple's position here. There's absolutely no value to a rich ecosystem of high quality apps like Basecamp if they are not directly monetized. Who needs 'em! (Apple does.) https://twitter.com/...

• @harrymccracken Harry McCracken on x

  The fact that Apple has trouble following its own rules (it accidentally approved Hey at first) may suggest there's an issue here. https://techcrunch.com/...

• @backlon Dieter Bohn on x

  At the height of its mad powers in the 90s Microsoft wasn't this tone deaf. https://www.theverge.com/...

• @lucvandal Luc Vandal on x

  I don't mind the 30% cut but that last sentence sounds like apps that do not benefit @Apple financially are useless. They created amazing platforms for us to take advantage of but our apps also made those platforms thrive. This is insulting to all developers. https://twitter.com/…

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  ...and Apple didn't just send it to the developer, they shared it with the press. A middle finger to everybody just before WWDC — who thought that paragraph was a good idea? Come on https://twitter.com/...

• @polarbearfarm Layton Duncan on x

  Haven't followed the details of the latest App Store controversy, but the vibe of this isn't pleasant. iOS wouldn't be what it is without devs producing apps. Apple couldn't have done it alone. Cash isn't the only value Apple extracts from the App Store. https://twitter.com/...

• @tomwarren Tom Warren on x

  Apple's arrogance knows no bounds 🙄 https://twitter.com/...

• @charlesarthur Charles Arthur on x

  @siracusa this is going to get Apple slaughtered in EU antitrust. Look at what happened with Google and Android sideloading. This will be way bigger.

• @rustyshelf Russell Ivanovic on x

  This whole “has generated no revenue for the App Store” line holds no water. If Apple removed all third party apps from their iOS store today, what would iPhone sales look like for the next 2 years? The abundance of apps makes Apple's phones sell. Without them they'd be dead. htt…

• @danieleran Daniel Eran Dilger on x

  @appleinsider @Apple The definition of insanity is submitting a game platform to the App Store repeatedly and expecting a different result. Why does Facebook have time to submit a shit package of web games five times but not Instagram for iPad? Must be some real good surveillance…

• @eugenewei Eugene Wei on x

  Per the Apple App Store debate, it's worth remembering that Amazon and Facebook burned crazy resources trying to build mobile phones—their own phones!—just to hedge the mobile platform risk. As world shifted to mobile both companies considered it an existential risk.

• @jmccarley John S. McCarley on x

  #Apple is like the opposite of the Supreme Court this week - All Bad News... @Apple https://twitter.com/...

• @barakgila Barak Gila on x

  idea for https://hey.com/: allow iOS users to subscribe but charge an insane, specific number like $9,138,452 per fortnight, for which the first search result is an anti-Apple screed & regular payment page. Apple lets developers charge a markup, so this should be kosher?

• @steipete Peter Steinberger on x

  So, add a super basic IMAP client and everything is fine? 😶 https://twitter.com/...

• @nealkhosla Neal Khosla on x

  “Large company w/ unrecognized monopoly unwilling to relinquish major revenue source” https://twitter.com/...

• @denzhadanov @denzhadanov on x

  Very solid response by @pschiller. From this perspective Hey does vialote the rules. Our Spark, provides the service for free to users, businesses can pay on the website and access extra features. https://twitter.com/...

• @ws Will on x

  I thought DHH was being a whiney little baby and overreacting about this whole thing, but the level of gal here is staggering. Trying to armchair quarterback a business model around your cut is not a good look. https://techcrunch.com/... https://twitter.com/...

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  🙅‍♂️ The app is only crippled on the App Store because that's what they had to do to fit Apple's written and unwritten rules. By the book. It's not ‘an email app’, it's the Hey app; Apple's framing is BS, and it's disappointing to see people fall for it https://t.co/ONJjr0uzTA

• @benthompson Ben Thompson on x

  Generous of Apple to not claim responsibility for Basecamp's 1999-2012 revenue.

• @dhh @dhh on x

  And another. Maybe Apple wants a cut of all banking too? #YouDownloadTheAppAndItDoesntWork https://twitter.com/...

• @dhh @dhh on x

  Here's another “You download the app and it doesn't work, that's not what we want on the store”. https://twitter.com/...

• @dhh @dhh on x

  And another #YouDownloadTheAppAndItDoesntWork. https://twitter.com/...

• @dhh @dhh on x

  Apple doubles down on their rejection of HEY in the App Store, but adds some spice to it at the end: YOU UNGRATEFUL PEASANTS! No mention of how Basecamp differs, how Gmail differs, how Outlook differs, how Fastmail differs. Just more edicts from the monopoly king! https://twitter…

• @danielpunkass Daniel Jalkut on x

  If I worked in Apple Developer Relations, engineering, product marketing, or App Store editorial, I'd be FURIOUS at whoever in the company is fomenting a developer-hostile public image the week before WWDC.

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  This ‘the App Store is a business, they can do what they want’ thing is nonsense. The App Store is a utility. It defines the future of software. If you're not on it as a developer, you don't exist. If you don't have access to apps, as a user, you're excluded from the modern world

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  That passive-aggressive bullshit 'you're not worth anything to us' paragraph in writing, from Apple. Oof https://twitter.com/...

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  For sure, I'm worried about retaliation for mentioning anything to do with App Store & antitrust. Last time I did, Phil blocked me. Apple have threatened my livelihood on App Store more than once, and know they could snuff me out in an instant. Just like they could for any of us

• @wongmjane Jane Manchun Wong on x

  Not that I agree with Apple's attitude on their policy, but I like how they gave a shout-out to the open email protocol standards like IMAP and POP https://twitter.com/... https://twitter.com/...

• @philmctimoney Phil McTimoney on x

  @theloop What would a free version of Hey look like? They're hosting your email account - how can that be free if they are making a stand against ads and everything that comes with them? Why doesn't Apple just sell a free version of the iPhone while we're at it? Ad supported!

• @bjtitus Brandon Titus on x

  @theloop @jdalrymple Why is it ok for whole categories of apps ("Readers") to be broken but not others? This reeks of concessions made for large VOD services and others to allow them to selectively apply this rule.

• @reckless Nilay Patel on x

  Good interview from @panzer with Schiller here on the Hey controversy. In my conversations with Apple people today, a repeated theme was definitely “if we change the rule for Hey, what's next?” — eventually the entire IAP services revenue strat falls down. https://techcrunch.com/…

• @slasher @slasher on x

  gatekeepers Apple have now rejected Facebook Gaming from the App Store 5 times, which would be a big deal if anyone used Facebook Gaming https://www.nytimes.com/...

• @alexhern Alex Hern on x

  Has anyone heard a single reason from Apple as to why this policy doesn't apply to @superhuman? https://twitter.com/...

• @stroughtonsmith Steve Troughton-Smith on x

  I'll miss Phil; this antitrust action is a self-inflicted wound, and was completely avoidable for Apple if it were not for the continued prevalence of a Jobs-era mindset that has already seen Apple hit for illegal wage-fixing and eBook price-fixing https://twitter.com/...

• @mgsiegler M.G. Siegler on x

  This isn't the Constitution. Apple holds the unilateral ability to change what it wants. They've been doing it in piecemeal fashion — Amendments? And worse, seemingly for preferred partners/deals, which has just pissed people off more over time. Rewrite the whole thing for 2020.

• @karissabe Karissa Bell on x

  Wow, definitely not passive aggressive at all! Really struggling to see the wisdom of picking a fight with a developer literally *days* before WWDC https://twitter.com/...

• @edbott Ed Bott on x

  Like a rejected Sopranos scene: “Basecamp, you come to us asking for a favor, but how long since you've given us a taste?” https://twitter.com/...

• @somospostpc Alex Barredo on x

  the last paragraph isn't illegal or anything but the snark is utterly unwarranted and would fall flat in Brussels. Apple is playing a political game and should treat this issue as such instead of punching down Basecamp for distributing the app in the only way available to them ht…

• @rileytestut @rileytestut on x

  the fact that the world's most valuable company sent this email with such a condescending last paragraph is absolutely bonkers https://twitter.com/...

• @film_girl Christina Warren on x

  This is just tripling down right now and honestly, it's painful to see this sort of thing. https://twitter.com/...

• @dhh @dhh on x

  @pierce @jasonfried Isn't it amazing that Apple, of all companies, is telling us that we can't integrate a service and a product? This has literally been their playbook for the last twenty years!!

• @dhh @dhh on x

  @TimSweeneyEpic We should talk!

• @sarthakgh Sar Haribhakti on x

  “The HEY Email app is marketed as an email app on the App Store, but when users download your app, it does not work.” https://twitter.com/... https://twitter.com/...

• @nmasc_ Natasha Mascarenhas on x

  *the plot thickens and triples down* https://twitter.com/...

• @caseynewton Casey Newton on x

  Apple has $192.8 billion in cash on hand https://twitter.com/...

• @mylesudland Myles Udland on x

  The App Store definitely operates in the background of most public investors' consciousness, but the Apple v. Hey thing — if not resolved cleanly — has some “a butterfly flaps its wings” risk for Apple. https://stratechery.com/... https://twitter.com/...