Discussion

• @timsweeneyepic Tim Sweeney on x

  Good morning! Today is international If We Open Up Platforms The World Will Explode Day sponsored by Big Tech Lobbyists and Astroturfers

• @riptari @riptari on x

  @Carnage4Life The fines may be quite a mouthful (up to 10% of annual turnover; 20% for repeat breaches). Plus IOP is asymmetrical; gatekeepers (eg fb) couldn't get IOP upside themselves - it's for smaller rivals to request

• @carnage4life @carnage4life on x

  This is what happens when legislators don't understand how network effects work. The law basically makes iMessage a client for Signal & Telegram. The assumption being users would gravitate to the smaller app if one could use iMessage or Signal with same friends. Huge assumption.

• @rileytestut @rileytestut on x

  Like @marcoarment, I think “what is the worst a company like Facebook could do?”...and unfortunately with this bill it's a *lot* e.g. say goodbye to App Tracking Transparency — the apps ATT matters the most for will just leave the App Store, rendering ATT effectively useless

• @alexstamos Alex Stamos on x

  @matrixdotorg ... If your messaging standard does not provide the same level of effortless privacy I get from Signal or WhatsApp (I'm excluding iMessage due to 🇨🇳) then IT IS NOT READY. Government mandates requiring an inferior and less secure experience are going to backfire.

• @antitrusty Alex Harman on x

  Another example of the top-notch Big Tech lobbyists getting completely shut out and losing both the battle and the war. I bet the problem is that they aren't paying their lobbyists enough. 🤦‍♂️ https://twitter.com/...

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  @shila_ray No, iMessage groups work completely differently

• @alexstamos Alex Stamos on x

  There are a lot of good ideas in the Digital Market Act. Open up app stores, great! Fight against rent seeking platforms, excellent! Open up closed APIs! Make platforms transparent and ad ecosystems more competitive, good!

• @antitrusty Alex Harman on x

  The idea that Big Tech lobbyists with all the money, resources, and relationships of the the largest companies in the world, who spend more on lobbying than ANY other companies can't catch a break says a lot of about how unpopular these the companies have become.

• @shila_ray @shila_ray on x

  @benedictevans sir - you can do groups on iMessage. I have a few of them on iMessage although in all cases the group owner knew that all the participants were on iOS. xPlatform large groups, WhatsApp wins the battle.

• @rileytestut @rileytestut on x

  Like it or not, looks like alternative app stores are officially coming to the iPhone... You'd think I'd be happy, but I'm very worried about the implications of this 😞 I want sideloading, but it needs to be the _exception_ to the rule...and this makes it way too convenient https…

• @markcornelisse Mark Cornelisse on x

  @benedictevans Nope, iMessage does have group chats. Since 2011 or earlier.

• @rileytestut @rileytestut on x

  Sideloading can allow new apps to exist, but it _shouldn't_ affect those who explicitly chose a curated, secure platform. Forcing Apple to allow alternative app stores is great for giant companies like Facebook and Epic, but is _much_ worse for consumers But what do I know 🤷‍♂️

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  iMessage does not have a groups function. WhatsApp does. If the EU mandates interoperability, does Apple have to build a groups function that works the way the WhatsApp one does? WhatsApp limits message forwarding - does Apple? Who decides? Who enforces that?

• @anshelsag Anshel Sag on x

  This is a huge win for consumers and a major thorn in Apple's side, but I believe it will bring about the adoption of RCS in iMessage and other messaging platforms. I had a feeling the EU would be the ones to move the needle on this first. https://twitter.com/...

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  What we will see here, of course, is a trade-off - a policy that is good for competition but bad for privacy and bad for the product. You can never have all three.

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  @MarkCornelisse No, not at all the same. WhatsApp groups have admins and invitations and can have 256 member

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  There's a naive idea here (which ironically comes up a lot in web3) that messages are just messages and messaging apps are just messaging apps and the difference is the logo - and that really isn't true. These are systems, and Interconnecting them raises all sorts of questions

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  The way the EU stuffed this through without any discussion, or even mechanism for discussion, is a failure of process regardless of what you think of the outcome.

• @robchandhok @robchandhok on x

  @benedictevans Recall when AOL and Yahoo thought about integrating their messaging - they couldn't (at the time) afford big enough pipes to handle the bandwidth of just “online status” updates between the two systems. These are large scale issues, as you point out. This isn't jus…

• @winterskiis Abby on x

  I shall once again express that yes, I want sideloading on the iPhone. But I do NOT support big governments forcing companies to implement it. It should be a choice and not be mandated. https://twitter.com/...

• @carnage4life @carnage4life on x

  Imagine a world where • Gmail users can receive email from any email service that asks • Hotmail users can receive mail from Hotmail or Gmail users • Yahoo Mail users can receive email from Yahoo or Gmail users. Now swap these names with WhatsApp, Signal & Telegram. 🤫 #DMA https:…

• @mr_james_c James Clark on x

  Every single one of these articles *uncritically* reports regulators who have proven repeatedly their actions absolutely warrant criticism. Incredible. https://www.ft.com/... via @FT

• @jessefelder Jesse Felder on x

  ‘The DMA will force so-called gatekeepers to open up their platforms to competitors, such as by forcing the companies to ensure their services are “interoperable”.’ https://www.ft.com/...

• @gartenberg Michael Gartenberg on x

  Good luck with that. Apple wouldnt even comply with the universal charging port request, i doubt this changes anything for Google. https://9to5mac.com/...

• @muradahmed Murad Ahmed on x

  Big Tech companies forced to pay up to 20 per cent of global revenues for repeat offences and even risk being broken up, if they breach the EU's new Digital Markets Act. Apple and Google attack the measures. By @JavierespFT in @FT https://www.ft.com/...

• @caseynewton Casey Newton on x

  By 2023 iMessage and WhatsApp will have to be interoperable, because Europe said so. Wild new internet we're living on these days https://twitter.com/...

• @alexstamos Alex Stamos on x

  WhatsApp rolling out mandatory end-to-end encryption was the largest improvement in communications privacy in human history. Period. Nothing else is close. Jan, Brian and team (and Signal)* did more good in 30 days than every EU DPA has with six years of GDPR.

• @vestager @vestager on x

  We have a deal on #DMA! Last trilogue with @Europarl_EN and @EUCouncil ended with a good, strong agreement. Tune into our press conference tomorrow 8:45 😊 https://twitter.com/...

• @stevebellovin Steven M. Bellovin on x

  @blakereid Alex is completely correct—interoperable E2EE is somewhere between extraordinarily difficult and impossible. The easy part—and it's hard—is managing a secure key exchange protocol across different platforms. But per Alex, namespaces are much harder. 1/

• @alexstamos Alex Stamos on x

  @MikeIsaac One of the reasons that the closed messaging products are such a better experience than SMS/MMS/RCS is that they aren't limited by incredibly slow standardization processes and you can upgrade without waiting for hundreds of counterparties.

• @vestager @vestager on x

  Done #DMA! https://twitter.com/...

• @davidcicilline David Cicilline on x

  As I said last February, change is coming. Laws are coming. Congratulations to my friends across the Atlantic on this hard fought victory to #ReinInBigTech. Now, Congress must act by passing my American Innovation and Choice Online Act. https://twitter.com/... https://twitter.com…

• @alexstamos Alex Stamos on x

  @MikeIsaac Yeah, and also as many people have pointed out federating an end-to-end encrypted namespace across many providers is a very open engineering challenge. A cynic might say that this is a way to effectively outlaw E2EE while framing it as an antitrust move against tech.

• @samsabin923 Sam Sabin on x

  something to watch: encryption experts are raising concerns about the messaging interoperability requirements in DMA, warning it will hinder the privacy protections that Europe loves so much https://twitter.com/...

• @stshank Stephen Shankland on x

  I'm hearing a lot of chatter about Europe's new law and how hard it is to get messaging systems to connect. This tweet is as good a nucleating particle as any for some of the discussion. https://twitter.com/...

• @reckless Nilay Patel on x

  I'm going to be so upset if Cook and Zuck don't compare messaging interop to fish on a bicycle https://twitter.com/...

• @reckless Nilay Patel on x

  Your regular reminder that governments demanding messaging service interoperability to preserve competition has a long, long history, including the Bush admin mandating AIM interop as a condition of the AOL / Time Warner merger https://t.co/ABGEoXXK5F

• @alexstamos Alex Stamos on x

  But EC/EP politicians are being told that they can have their data privacy, competition, safety, user experience and data localization cakes and eat them all too with the messenger interop requirement, and that is just plain wrong. Some discussion: https://twitter.com/...

• @carnage4life @carnage4life on x

  It will soon be illegal in the EU for Apple to continue to provide an iPhone without an ability to install apps from outside the App Store. The next battle ground is going to be how Apple requiring 27-30% of IAP revenue even if you don't use the App Store https://www.theverge.com…

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  It's relatively straightforward to imagine how iMessage and WhatsApp could be interoperable, but more of a puzzle to work out what it would mean to send a Snap story to WhatsApp - what does the EU think should happen then? And who gets fined if it doesn't work?

• @blakereid Blake E. Reid on x

  Hope to hear from folks like @SteveBellovin on E2EE and interop. I'm a little skeptical of the need for interop mandates (versus bigger structural interventions), but E2EE is so much more important it's not close if there's serious systems-engineering tension between the two. htt…

• @alexstamos Alex Stamos on x

  *On credit, Moxie and the Signal team invented the Signal ratchet protocol and demonstrated its practicality before WhatsApp rolled it out to a billion people. In a sane world, Moxie would get the Nobel Peace Prize for securing the communications of billions.

• @fboversight @fboversight on x

  The Digital Markets Act is an important, monumental step in reigning in Facebook and others monopoly power. The EU is setting the global standard. Other nations should follow. /1 https://www.reuters.com/...

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  But either way this is a terrible process for implementing rules like this - stuffing a clause into a piece of primary legislation at the last minute without any debate. Technical regulatory questions should be decided by specialist regulators, just as in any other field.

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  If any messaging app is obliged to accept any inbound messages from any other app, then how do you deal with spam or harassment? How do you block harassers?

• @benedictevans Benedict Evans on x

  You will, almost certainly, have to disable end to end encryption at the moment a message leaves one network and goes to another - how do you signal that to the user? Will the EU fine you for telling people that the EU has broken your privacy?

• @reneritchie Rene Ritchie on x

  Hot take: EU did that with browser ballots and now everything but Gecko runs on WebKit/Chromium, big companies can afford GDPR way easier than small, and we're all clicking cookie disclosures 39x a day Plus, if this breaks E2E encryption... probably a feature not a bug for them? …

• @carnage4life @carnage4life on x

  I'm confident that Apple will either ignore or delay implementation eating fines along the way but once they do will restrict interoperability to EU users. They have elevated proprietary lock-in to a fine art. https://twitter.com/...

• @alexstamos Alex Stamos on x

  @Carnage4Life Apple already has an out built in: SMS/MMS compatibility. Maybe they just turn Europe into all green bubbles and see what happens. Currently not an option for WhatsApp.

• @floorter @floorter on x

  I'm sceptical of mandated interoperability too. Why not start with actual enforcement on art. 20 GDPR (data portability) and then see if 1) that's even practically feasible, and 2) if more interoperability is needed. https://twitter.com/...

• @erosresmini @erosresmini on x

  Is Discord a messaging service? Is this going to be a waste of time like GDPR? https://twitter.com/...

• @alecmuffett Alec Muffett on x

  @CaseyNewton I deleted my previous tweet so that I can be more plain: this is a mind numbingly foolish, privacy-destroying, encryption-busting, innovation-killing proposal, dressed up in clothes of anti-monopoly. If you want federation go use a federated protocol. https://twitter…

• @charlesdardaman Chase Dardaman on x

  This is a terrible idea, if I wanted an outdated system to message someone regardless of their phone I'd just use SMS https://twitter.com/...

• @histoftech Mar Hicks on x

  Fascinating that we're in a moment in computing's history where this kind of interoperability must be legislated—and to know that many in the US will believe this attempt to improve communications infrastructure is an overreach on the part of foreign govts https://www.theverge.co…

• @nikitabier Nikita Bier on x

  The irony of this anti-trust legislation: If iMessage becomes interoperable (particularly in the United States), Facebook would have its biggest competitive threat eliminated and have a clear path to recapturing the Close Friends social graph. https://twitter.com/...

• @reckless Nilay Patel on x

  In general doing the right thing a decade before a bunch of Europeans decide to make you do something you hate is a good way to avoid government regulation

• @bertuzluca Luca Bertuzzi on x

  DMA FINAL agreement reached. FRAND extended to social media and search engines. Timeframe: 6 months for entry into force + 6 months for compliance. https://twitter.com/...

• @reckless Nilay Patel on x

  All the noise Apple is going to make about iMessage interoperability being dangerous and bad and they should have just listened to Eddy Cue in 2013 https://www.theverge.com/... https://twitter.com/...

• @tomwarren Tom Warren on x

  EU lawmakers have just agreed that services like WhatsApp and iMessage will have to open up and interoperate with smaller platforms 👀 it's part of The Digital Markets Act, that takes aim at tech giants like Apple, Google, Microsoft, Meta, and Amazon https://www.theverge.com/... h…

• @senficon Felix Reda on x

  Once again it looks like the press publishers' lobby may get their will in Brussels, because nobody has the guts to stand up to their nonsense. They're hijacking the #DMA to line their pockets under the guise of fairness obligations on big tech. https://www.euractiv.com/...

• @tomwarren Tom Warren on x

  The Digital Markets Act also means Apple will have to allow alternatives to its App Store to download iOS apps, and users of iOS and Android will be able to “freely choose their browser, their virtual assistant or their search engine.”

• @alexstamos Alex Stamos on x

  @Carnage4Life Unfortunately, this would mean a massive decrease in privacy for European users against both their local governments, well-resourced foreign governments like the US and RU (those embassy antennas aren't for show) and, in some locations, random dudes with the right F…

• @suka_hiroaki Andreas Proschofsky on x

  I still don't see this happening. Nobody, absolutely nobody in the industry wants that. Not even the smaller messengers (cause it would reduce their security). Will be interesting to see what the outcome here is. https://www.theverge.com/...

• @fooflington @fooflington on x

  Wow, this is huge... a legal end to online walled gardens forcing interoperability between (similar?) services like WhatsApp and iMessage. I'm really pleased! https://twitter.com/...

• @damienpetrilli Damien Petrilli on x

  + sideloading + alternative stores + can't force any payment system + NFC must be accessible + must be able to set all default apps Yup. Apple lost on all fronts. They aren't going to be happy. https://twitter.com/...

• @carnage4life @carnage4life on x

  Unexpected news from Europe's digital marketing act is that any company with a market cap of €75B+ will need to open up their IM networks. Could mean WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger or iMessage will have to interoperate with smaller messaging platforms😮 https://www.politico.eu/...

• @boring_cactus @boring_cactus on x

  hmm i wonder if this means Google Messaging App Nobody Asked For № 12 and Google Messaging App Nobody Asked For № 13 are going to be compatible with each other https://twitter.com/...

• @tejaskumar_ @tejaskumar_ on x

  This is why I love Europe. EU lawmakers make corporations do stuff usually for the good of the people, and corporations seem to have not (yet) taken over like in other parts of the world. https://twitter.com/...

• @neeva @neeva on x

  ⚡️The EU leading the way to rein in Big Tech and restore competition online. Defaults are competition killers, especially in search. The DMA's choice screen requirement is a BIG step to unlock market access. Time for the 🇺🇸 to do the same! https://techcrunch.com/...

• @gk3 George Kedenburg III on x

  thoughts and prayers to the product designers who get stuck on this project https://twitter.com/...

• @mikeisaac @mikeisaac on x

  fascinated to understand how this happens. totally recasts the messaging wars Zuckerberg decided in 2018 that all three of his main messaging apps needed to interoperate and they are STILL working on it (much to the grousing of many folks inside) https://www.nytimes.com/... https…

• @thierrybreton Thierry Breton on x

  DMA. 3 letters — and a lot of work done for fair & open digital markets. And with tonight's agreement, soon a reality. Because no one should be “too big to care”. Because 🇪🇺 means digital rights. #DMA https://twitter.com/...

• @nikitabier @nikitabier on x

  For what it's worth, I think this is a positive development for competition - just hilarious that this was designed to hurt Facebook

• @jason_kint Jason Kint on x

  In DMA discussion, whatever you do, 1) caution on the strong takes from US influencers who haven't been following this closely for last 16 months and 2) don't overlook implications on data use as the smart German decision vs Facebook influences data silos for gatekeepers. https:/…

• @patrickmoorhead @patrickmoorhead on x

  While the EU typically soaks US tech companies for tax dollars disguised as antitrust, this one makes sense. Hopeful this makes it to the US, selfishly, so I can dump my iPhone. $APPL https://twitter.com/...

• @sarthakgh @sarthakgh on x

  Amazingly and unsurprisingly, this is bullish for Meta and we will see the inevitable stories about how interoperability is bad because of data-sharing Remember when FB tried to enable devs to get friends' friends' data?! https://twitter.com/...

• @wcathcart Will Cathcart on x

  Haven't seen the details of this yet, but I hope they are extremely thoughtful. Interoperability can have benefits, but if it's not done carefully this could cause a tragic weakening of security and privacy in Europe. https://twitter.com/...

• @reckless Nilay Patel on x

  (whispers: supporting encrypted RCS would meet all these requirements) https://www.theverge.com/...

• @carnage4life @carnage4life on x

  The sound of 27 different Google product teams rushing to ship the Android messaging app that interop with iMessage #BlueBubbleGang https://twitter.com/...

• @jason_kint Jason Kint on x

  Agreement on DMA (the gatekeeper law) was announced a few hours ago. I've been a bit reserved waiting for final final text but it looks like what I was pushing stuck. If so, it's a big, broad hit to Facebook and surveillance capitalism. ht @Andreas_Schwab https://techcrunch.com/.…

• @timothybucksf Timothy Buck on x

  @reckless Hmmm interesting take! Do you think Apple was their main focus here and the other messaging services are collateral damage?

• @reckless Nilay Patel on x

  @TimothyBuckSF Without a doubt

• @timothybucksf Timothy Buck on x

  @reckless Apple building an Android app is not at all the same thing as forcing interoperability across the industry...

• @reckless Nilay Patel on x

  @TimothyBuckSF They are forcing the interop because they want to lower the switching costs between platforms and iMessage lock-in is a huge switching cost. If Apple had reduced that cost on their own terms they might not be here now

• @lewis_crofts Lewis Crofts on x

  Sense of history, anyone? Europe agrees its new Big Tech-busting legislation today. #DMA It is 18 years to the day, exactly, since @EU_Commission sanctioned #Microsoft in its first ever massive tech #antitrust case. How things have changed.

• @pierce David Pierce on x

  This is an exciting idea! And i bet you $10 that the whole process of implementation and enforcement makes a lot of people wish it never happened https://twitter.com/...

• @rlove Robert Love on x

  Ultimately, and unfortunately, most of this won't be good for the consumer https://www.theverge.com/...

• @timsweeneyepic Tim Sweeney on x

  Europe is completely in the right to reign in the platform monopolies and open markets to fair competition. Everyone will benefit even, ironically, the platform monopolies themselves. Here's Apple's nice TV app on Android being ruined by Google policies. https://twitter.com/...

• @reckless Nilay Patel on x

  (Just a reminder that the entire open web has supported multi-client encryption for a long time)

• @reckless Nilay Patel on x

  @alexstamos @MikeIsaac Oh, I think the main reason is that tech companies make one set of things and phone companies make the other.

• @mikeisaac @mikeisaac on x

  @alexstamos private vs public sector...but for messaging!

• @ashkan Ashkan Karbasfrooshan on x

  indeed super positive for meta/fb & further makes apple ubiquitous https://twitter.com/...

• @eric_seufert Eric Seufert on x

  I wonder if the substance of the DMA would be different if any significant consumer tech platforms were domiciled in Europe.

• @timothybucksf Timothy Buck on x

  @MikeIsaac Forcing interoperability between unencrypted and end-to-end encrypted services is... going to have significant privacy consequences.

• @daveleeft Dave Lee on x

  In other words, this quote isn't just Nick Clegg Nick-Clegging. Iterating products could get extremely difficult*. (*I predict some kind of “compatibility mode” option that strips out just about everything, putting into question whether customers will feel any less locked in.) ht…

• @alexeheath Alex Heath on x

  Facebook started working on making ITS OWN messaging apps interoperable like 4 years ago and is still working on it! Just one company! Imagine the whole industry agreeing on a standard and implementing it.

• @daveleeft Dave Lee on x

  Yes, a lot of technical things to iron out here. DMA demands video calls be made cross-platform. That seems... troublesome. And the right to pick a voice assistant — to what extent? Buy an Apple Homepod but have it controlled by Alexa instead? https://twitter.com/...

• @kantrowitz Alex Kantrowitz on x

  This, to me, is the biggest deal in the EU digital markets bill and it's not even close: “Mandates to allow users to install apps from third-party platforms.” https://www.politico.eu/... https://twitter.com/...

• @alexeheath Alex Heath on x

  The biggest thing with this is that, especially with messaging/social products, tech companies will likely be forced to implement EU regulations globally. Also, how on earth do you do this in a privacy-safe way? https://twitter.com/...

• @alecmuffett Alec Muffett on x

  @CaseyNewton Apart from anything else it will also destroy anti-abuse mechanisms which are being built by profiling actions and reputations of users within a fixed ecosystem. This is a literal nightmare for privacy and safety of E2E-Encrypted messengers.

• @kantrowitz Alex Kantrowitz on x

  Zuck to Europe: Thank you very much

• @kantrowitz Alex Kantrowitz on x

  That particularly sucks for Apple, which views Facebook's messaging apps as a threat to its iPhone lock-in. Great news for the metamates. https://twitter.com/...

• @cultexpert Steven Hassan, PhD on x

  This is positive development. Wish American politicians weren't being influenced by lobbyists at the expense of of all Americans Freedom of Mind. https://www.nytimes.com/...

• @jesselehrich Jesse Lehrich on x

  🚨 EU just finalized its sweeping overhaul of competition rules across the digital economy. Big Tech tried everything to block this landmark law & protect their unfair market abuses. they lost. https://twitter.com/...

• @wricciardi Walter Ricciardi on x

  well done proud to be European @vestager https://twitter.com/...

• @samuelstolton Samuel Stolton on x

  “The Digital Markets Act puts an end to the ever-increasing dominance of Big Tech companies,” lead MEP @Andreas_Schwab said. “From now on, Big Tech companies must show that they also allow for fair competition on the internet.” #DMA https://www.politico.eu/...

• @mattnavarra Matt Navarra on x

  EU adopts Digital Markets Act Social media companies hit with groundbreaking regulation in Europe https://www.politico.eu/...

• @piratkolaja Marcel Kolaja on x

  Some 7 hours later... The #DigitalMarketsAct has been negotiated! Interoperability of messaging services are now among obligations that the gatekeepers will need to comply with! Great news for fairer and contestable markets as well as for the users! https://twitter.com/... https:…

• @samuelstolton Samuel Stolton on x

  Details: - Scope thresholds: annual turnover €7.5bn / market capitalisation €75 billion - Web browsers & virtual assistants in scope of CPS - targeted ads for minors moved to DSA -interoperability for messages - group chats staggered over 3 yrs - choice screens for CPS

• @thibklnr Thibaut Kleiner on x

  @DMA deal! Historic moment for digital regulation and a proof that EU democracy can work https://twitter.com/...

• @markscott82 Mark Scott on x

  And there you have it. New #antitrust era begins (soon) https://twitter.com/...

• @europe2022fr @europe2022fr on x

  ➡️The text will be finalized shortly and submitted to COREPER for approval, before being sent to Parliament for adoption by both legislators. #DMA #EU2022FR

• @eupussycat @eupussycat on x

  Agreement in #Trilogues on the #DMA. As @CIFE_EUstudies students know, there are still some bridges to be crossed (check our tracking chart). But this is a massive step forward for Europe as a regulator of foreign tech companies, to protect our values and our consumers. https://t…

• @andreas_schwab @andreas_schwab on x

  We managed to agree on a deal: painful in some areas. Very positive in anlogt of areas. All colleagues wanted to contribute for a better digital market.

• @europe2022fr @europe2022fr on x

  ‼️DEAL‼ ️ Provisional agreement with the @Europarl_EN on the Digital Markets Act #DMA. An innovative and long-awaited text to ensure fair competition in digital markets. #EU2022FR ⤵️ https://twitter.com/...