NY regulator launches a probe into Goldman Sachs after a viral tweet alleges gender discrimination in the Apple Card's algorithms when determining credit limits
- Tech entrepreneur alleged inherent bias in algorithms for card — The card is part of Goldman's new main street business lines
Bloomberg
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Discussion
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@gsbanksupport
@gsbanksupport
on x
We wanted to address some recent questions regarding the #AppleCard credit decision process. pic.twitter.com/TNZJTUZv36
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@stevewoz
Steve Wozniak
on x
@dhh @AppleCard The same thing happened to us. I got 10x the credit limit. We have no separate bank or credit card accounts or any separate assets. Hard to get to a human for a correction though. It's big tech in 2019.
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
The @AppleCard is such a fucking sexist program. My wife and I filed joint tax returns, live in a community-property state, and have been married for a long time. Yet Apple's black box algorithm thinks I deserve 20x the credit limit she does. No appeals work.
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@codinghorror
Jeff Atwood
on x
then don't use the Apple Card? Solution seems obvious
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@rienzokennedy
Iscah
on x
Women only gained the right to access credit without a male co-signer in 1974. https://twitter.com/...
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@aaroth
Aaron Roth
on x
This will be an interesting case: https://www.nytimes.com/... Examples of inadvertently discriminatory ML now come out every week, but this is in a regulated industry, and reportedly New York regulators will “investigate the algorithm”. Curious to see what happens. H/T @jveliskov…
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
When even the great Steve Wozniak can't get @AppleCard to explain or correct its faulty credit assessments, you know the system is beyond broken. @tim_cook, you gotta do better than this! https://twitter.com/...
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
Amazing response by @NYDFS. Let's seize this opportunity to push for transparency in credit assessment algorithms. Consumers should know what inputs govern their determination, have the power to correct faults, and be able to compare outcomes. https://medium.com/...
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
Great example of how algorithmic bias ends up gendered in its discrimination. What percentage of “homemakers” do you think are women? If they're unable to rely on shared wealth, household income, or historical earning power to demonstrate ability to repay credit, they're cut off.…
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@dwlz
Dan Loewenherz
on x
Just read the thread. This all sucks. 🙁 Did you apply for a card first? Maybe if your wife had applied first you'd be the one getting the short end of the stick? I just don't understand how you immediately can know it's a sexist issue. Maybe they have household limits?
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@frances_coppola
@frances_coppola
on x
It's not just that it is gendered, it is also that the algorithm that decides credit limits is totally opaque and its decisions are both illogical (since some women with higher incomes and better credit scores than their husbands get lower credit limits) and immutable. https://tw…
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@asanwal
Anand Sanwal
on x
Good to see that viral tweets are how regulators find stuff to do https://twitter.com/...
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@_academicyogi_
Katie
on x
Upon seeing your thread, I just tried it for myself and my husband. We also live in a community property state. I got denied. My husband got approved for..enough to buy a car.
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@benadida
Ben Adida
on x
This is a very good and important thread from @dhh. It doesn't matter what the reason is for this outcome, if the outcome is so clearly sexist, there's a serious problem. Imagine all the places where this is likely happening and we don't know / can't do anything about it. https:/…
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
I'm surprised that they even let her apply for a card without the signed approval of her spouse? I mean, can you really trust women with a credit card these days??!
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@timobrien
Tim O'Brien
on x
It looks like the Apple Card may arbitrarily give men 10x to 20x more credit than women for no other reason than they're men and women. It even happened to Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak's wife. https://www.bloomberg.com/...
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@tariqkrim
Tariq Krim
on x
How do we know a Blackbox algorithm respect the law if we can't have a look at it? AI means Algorithmic Interference rather than Artificial Intelligence these days. https://www.bloomberg.com/...
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@charlesarthur
Charles Arthur
on x
Amazing thread. And an early spoiler: his wife's credit score is higher than his. But even so you should read this. https://twitter.com/...
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@aquilino
Aquilino Pea
on x
Wonderful and frightening thread by @dhh His wife was given 5% of his credit limit. Why ? The algorithm! AI and algorithms will bring a new era of red tape that no one will be able to explain within customer service and organizations https://twitter.com/...
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@garethrhodes
Gareth Rhodes
on x
After @dhh reports of inherent bias in algorithm for Apple Card credit-limit decisions, @NYDFS to open an investigation to determine whether NY anti-discrimination law was violated & ensure all consumers are treated equally regardless of sex. https://www.bloomberg.com/...
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
So let's recap here: Apple offers a credit card that bases its credit assessment on a black-box algorithm that 6 different reps across Apple and GS have no visibility into. Even several layers of management. An internal investigation. IT'S JUST THE ALGORITHM!
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@moonpolysoft
@moonpolysoft
on x
Real, reasonable issues, but basically all these problems are endemic to any affiliate marketing credit card, because all of the core functions of risk scoring and processing transactions are farmed out to third parties who only know cobol and mainframe. https://twitter.com/...
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@originalspin
Jeff Yang
on x
This is absolute bullshit, @Apple. Kind of brings into question how you intend to execute your plans to invest $2.5B on affordable housing: https://www.nytimes.com/... https://twitter.com/...
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
It gets even worse. Even when she pays off her ridiculously low limit in full, the card won't approve any spending until the next billing period. Women apparently aren't good credit risks even when they pay off the fucking balance in advance and in full. pic.twitter.com/9yFtoRj3X…
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@politicoryan
Ryan Heath
on x
Possibly the best thread I've ever read. A great use of Twitter; and an important warning about unaccountable biases in the algorithms that rule more and more of our lives, from a one of the world's tech gurus. https://twitter.com/...
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
The customer service experience is infuriating too. They're quick to respond, but nobody is authorized to discuss the credit assessment process. No opportunity to present evidence. Just a “sorry, your wife is deemed to be 1/20th the credit worth you are, check again in 6 months!”
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
I hear that this has turned into a formal internal complaint that's being investigated. Hopefully a moment to revisit some assumption about black-box algorithms, bias, and customer service! 🙏
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@stilkov
Stefan Tilkov
on x
The power of having 350k Twitter followers https://twitter.com/...
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@anildash
@anildash
on x
When tech leaders use platforms for good and amplify meaningful problems to be solved, it can have real impact. https://twitter.com/...
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@mdudas
Mike Dudas
on x
You have to be f*cking kidding me... “A Wall Street regulator is opening a probe into @GoldmanSachs' credit card practices after a viral tweet from @dhh alleged gender discrimination in the new Apple Card's algorithms when determining credit limits.” https://www.bloomberg.com/...
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
Apple has handed the customer experience and their reputation as an inclusive organization over to a biased, sexist algorithm it does not understand, cannot reason with, and is unable to control. When a trillion-dollar company simply accepts the algorithmic overlord like this...
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@krishnagade
Krishna Gade
on x
A Wall Street regulator is opening a probe now. Thank you @dhh for bringing this to attention. We need to hold companies accountable for their AI practices and make sure there is much-needed transparency. #ResponsibleAI https://www.bloomberg.com/...
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
“The department will be conducting an investigation to determine whether New York law was violated and ensure all consumers are treated equally regardless of sex,” said a spokesman for Linda Lacewell, the superintendent of the New York Department of Financial Services 🔥🔥🔥
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
Oy, that closing sentence really does carry a heavy burden in this ad: Terms apply. Or be applied to you. Or denied to you. In either case, the terms will be opaque and capricious. pic.twitter.com/pzDVlJYIz9
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
It's also fucked up how they chose to raise my wife's limit without ever addressing the root of the issue. Let's just, essentially, bribe one loud mouth on Twitter, then we don't have to actually examine our faulty faith in THE ALGORITHM.
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
So obviously we both furiously signup for the fucking $25/month credit-check bullshit shakedown that is TransUnion. Maybe someone stole my wife's identity? Even though we've verified there was nothing wrong previously. Guess what: HER CREDIT SCORE WAS HIGHER THAN MINE!!!
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
What's even worse is how complete and unquestioned the faith of these Apple reps were in the wisdom of THE ALGORITHM. To be point of essentially credit shaming my wife, assuming her score must have been lower than mine, and roping us into a TransUnion shakedown to check.
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@dhh
@dhh
on x
I wasn't even pessimistic to expect this outcome, but here we are: @AppleCard just gave my wife the VIP bump to match my credit limit, but continued to be an utter fucking failure of a customer service experience. Let me explain...
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@jolyonmaugham
Jo Maugham QC
on x
Quite rightly, huge interest in what these tweets tell us about the bigotry embedded in automated decision making. But in the UK European law provides us, for the time being at least, with very real protection. 1/2 https://twitter.com/...
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@anildash
@anildash
on x
Righteous anger in this thread. A lot of power in telling the truth about biased systems. https://twitter.com/...